In what way is installing from the play store fundamentally different? Just because it was preloaded on your phone? What if F droid was preloaded on your phone instead? Is it still sideloading? Google’s logic breaks down pretty quickly when you think about it
Installing software from outside the play store should be called installing software. It’s installing software from the play store what should have a special name, like “gatedloading” for example.
The issue people have with making the distinction is that Google is trying to spin the narrative and make side loading seem like a dangerous and bad thing to the average user base who don’t know any better.
They’re taking umbrage with you agreeing that quantitative usage of a storefront makes something simply installing vs side loading a program. Because it helps Google’s narrative in a way.
I understand exactly what people think the issue is. I don’t understand or agree with any of the logic. Google did not invent the term. Apple did not invent the term. There’s nothing in the term itself to imply anything nefarious. It’s nothing but a word used to describe apps installed from outside the default store. When 99-100% of users are all installing exclusively from the default store, it makes sense to have a term that describes that instead of saying “installing apps from outside the default app store” every time.
I will concede that the corporate use of ‘sideloading’ is bypassing the official store, but if you look at the other examples you’ll see that it is not the only usage. I think it is important to frame installing software as just that.
Google is twisting the word to justify their purpose of preventing people from installing anything that isn’t from their walled garden. So anything that sounds even close to support for that motive is going to be met with pushback, even if it is a word that existed before Google’s use of it. Google’s implicitly saying that installing something from anywhere other than their store is something nefarious or otherwise bad/risky. Google is trying to perform the same kind of security theatre as the US with the NSA at airports.
Honestly, it doesn’t matter to me where you install an app from because you’re simply installing it. Whether that’s from Google’s storefront, Apple’s, or somewhere else, you’re installing an app. The circumstances where I’d need a term to specifically say that I’m installing an app from outside the default app store would also be covered by simply saying “I got it from GitHub (or wherever).” It takes the same energy to answer the question of where you got it from regardless of whether you say that you installed it or you side loaded it.
By justifying getting rid of it as “security concerns”. This is the first time the average user will have heard the term, so it will be linked in their head to this and therefore as risky/dangerous and they won’t question why Google would want to make it harder, if not impossible, for people to install apps or other software without Google’s explicit permission.
The walls around the garden get taller, and those inside won’t question why there aren’t any doors.
By justifying getting rid of it as “security concerns”.
That has absolutely nothing to do with what you said. What you said is that they were “twisting the word”. Once again, they’re using it in exactly the way it is intended to be used.
So it’s always had a negative connotation to it? Because that’s what I’m saying. That Google is using the word by its correct definition, but adding to the original definition a subtext that side loading is a bad thing. Hence, they’re twisting it from its original meaning to a negative connotation to the average person (who has never heard the word before).
It’s like Windows’ UAC popping up with a warning when you try to install just about anything. To the average computer illiterate person, they’re going to second guess whatever they’re installing as “dangerous” while the rest of us are like “shut up Windows, of course I want to install the Nvidia drivers, that’s why I clicked on the damn thing.”
When you install a ‘.exe’ file in Windows, you don’t call it ‘sideloading’, you call it ‘downloading and installing’.
This is the exact same thing. I download from sites, F-Droid, Obtainium, etc., and install the software that is the file I downloaded. I’m effectively NOT side-anything.
The point is, there shouldn’t be a distinction. To make one is to support prejudice against installing software from elsewhere.
If you use “installing” for stuff from the Google store but any other word for stuff from other sources, you are aiding and abetting Google’s anti-property-rights propaganda.
There has to be. When 99% of installs come from one location, there needs to be a way to describe that other than “Installing apps from outside the default app store”.
To make one is to support prejudice against installing software from elsewhere.
Okay, I understand your position. Android’s play store has market dominance, so the a term to distinguish between 99% of play store installs vs others, makes sense.
Now, that is a tangent to the main issue, just arguing semantics. The issue is control versus
openness, not about the term sideloading.
Is Google’s plan to restrict app sideloading a good thing in your eyes, or no?
Nice, I could tell you’re a smart dude, so at least we all can agree that Android is no longer to be trusted.
Funny how words and language become the focus of this thread, and then the main issues get pushed to the side. I was arguing against you as if we didn’t agree on the main problem 😅
The words for distinguishing between apps that come from one trusted location vs others is usually untrusted or unverified apps versus trusted or verified ones. “Installing apps from outside the default app store” converts to, “Installing an untrusted app”.
Installing an app is not the same thing as installing an app? What difference does it make where it came from? Why do you need two different words for installing an app? Why does the distinction of where it came from matter when the outcome is no different?
I didn’t say that’s what you said, I’m making a point that its the same fucking thing. Read the rest of my comment and answer my questions please. Or do you agree that there’s no functional difference and splitting hairs about where it came from is just a way to enforce corporate hegemony?
It was clearly the implied suggestion. I’ve already answered your questions a dozen times elsewhere. Gonna have to have a poke around because I don’t feel like typing them again.
Or do you agree that there’s no functional difference and splitting hairs about where it came from is just a way to enforce corporate hegemony?
The functional difference is that one means “installing from anywhere” and the other means “installing from outside the default app store”. They are different words with different meanings, one being more specific than the other.
It’s like saying “neurosurgeon” instead of “medical professional”. There is a difference. One is much more specific. “Neurosurgeon” wasn’t made up by Big Pharma to gaslight you into believing brain surgery was bad, it’s just a lot fewer words than “medical professional who does surgery on brains”.
When I install software from the Arch User Repository I still just call it installing, even though it isn’t through the standard path. Everywhere else, you don’t make the distinction. For some reason on phones we’ve come to call it sideloading, even though the software is just software —it doesn’t care where it came from.
even within android, if you attempt to install an apk directly, it doesn’t say “would you like to sideload this application?”, but instead says, “Do you want to install this app?”.
Even Google’s own OS doesn’t use made up language.
Again, when I install something from the AUR (which is not where most software comes from —99+% are from official repositories) it isn’t given a special term. It’s the exact same situation as “sideloading” but we just call it installing. Can you explain what the difference is between them?
Wow, you’re frustrating. If using an unofficial source for applications is called sideloading, why isn’t that term used for desktop computing? The term only exists for phones. The AUR is an unofficial user-run source and is equivalent to a source other than the play/apple store. If that term was actually useful or needed we call installing applications from the AUR sideloading, but we don’t. Clearly the term has no real utility besides making it sound like something you shouldn’t do.
The same word that I use to when I get software that’s not on the Microsoft Store, the Mac App Store, or whatever distro’s Software GUI when I am using my desktop…
Why? That’s a perfect example. There is no qualitative difrence between Microsoft Store and Play Store. Why quantitative difference in the market share would make any distinction in the terminology we use around the process?
So when I install an app from Fdroid, it’s only “installing” if lots of other people do it? But if other people don’t use it as much it’s “sideloading”?
Okay but it’s specifically software from outside the Play Store?
In what way is installing from the play store fundamentally different? Just because it was preloaded on your phone? What if F droid was preloaded on your phone instead? Is it still sideloading? Google’s logic breaks down pretty quickly when you think about it
Installing software from outside the play store should be called installing software. It’s installing software from the play store what should have a special name, like “gatedloading” for example.
Good news. It is!
Make it hap’n Cap’n. You’re still not invalidating the term of “sideloading”.
The issue people have with making the distinction is that Google is trying to spin the narrative and make side loading seem like a dangerous and bad thing to the average user base who don’t know any better.
They’re taking umbrage with you agreeing that quantitative usage of a storefront makes something simply installing vs side loading a program. Because it helps Google’s narrative in a way.
I understand exactly what people think the issue is. I don’t understand or agree with any of the logic. Google did not invent the term. Apple did not invent the term. There’s nothing in the term itself to imply anything nefarious. It’s nothing but a word used to describe apps installed from outside the default store. When 99-100% of users are all installing exclusively from the default store, it makes sense to have a term that describes that instead of saying “installing apps from outside the default app store” every time.
Installing software without a store was just called installing software.
Sideloading is when you download from the side, e.g. downloading software from a separate device instead of from the internet or physical media.
It isn’t.
Why do you think it’s not?
Because it’s not? I can show you 100 sources that say it’s not, can you show me one that says otherwise?
Go for it.
Source: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sideload
I will concede that the corporate use of ‘sideloading’ is bypassing the official store, but if you look at the other examples you’ll see that it is not the only usage. I think it is important to frame installing software as just that.
Google is twisting the word to justify their purpose of preventing people from installing anything that isn’t from their walled garden. So anything that sounds even close to support for that motive is going to be met with pushback, even if it is a word that existed before Google’s use of it. Google’s implicitly saying that installing something from anywhere other than their store is something nefarious or otherwise bad/risky. Google is trying to perform the same kind of security theatre as the US with the NSA at airports.
Honestly, it doesn’t matter to me where you install an app from because you’re simply installing it. Whether that’s from Google’s storefront, Apple’s, or somewhere else, you’re installing an app. The circumstances where I’d need a term to specifically say that I’m installing an app from outside the default app store would also be covered by simply saying “I got it from GitHub (or wherever).” It takes the same energy to answer the question of where you got it from regardless of whether you say that you installed it or you side loaded it.
How is it being twisted? They’re using it in exactly the way it is intended to be used?
By justifying getting rid of it as “security concerns”. This is the first time the average user will have heard the term, so it will be linked in their head to this and therefore as risky/dangerous and they won’t question why Google would want to make it harder, if not impossible, for people to install apps or other software without Google’s explicit permission.
The walls around the garden get taller, and those inside won’t question why there aren’t any doors.
That has absolutely nothing to do with what you said. What you said is that they were “twisting the word”. Once again, they’re using it in exactly the way it is intended to be used.
So it’s always had a negative connotation to it? Because that’s what I’m saying. That Google is using the word by its correct definition, but adding to the original definition a subtext that side loading is a bad thing. Hence, they’re twisting it from its original meaning to a negative connotation to the average person (who has never heard the word before).
It’s like Windows’ UAC popping up with a warning when you try to install just about anything. To the average computer illiterate person, they’re going to second guess whatever they’re installing as “dangerous” while the rest of us are like “shut up Windows, of course I want to install the Nvidia drivers, that’s why I clicked on the damn thing.”
When you install a ‘.exe’ file in Windows, you don’t call it ‘sideloading’, you call it ‘downloading and installing’.
This is the exact same thing. I download from sites, F-Droid, Obtainium, etc., and install the software that is the file I downloaded. I’m effectively NOT side-anything.
You might call it that if 99% of software was installed from MS store.
0% of my android software is installed through Google Play. Then what?
I don’t even know what that’s supposed to mean. We’re not talking about you.
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Wao, such a compelling argument.
The point is, there shouldn’t be a distinction. To make one is to support prejudice against installing software from elsewhere.
If you use “installing” for stuff from the Google store but any other word for stuff from other sources, you are aiding and abetting Google’s anti-property-rights propaganda.
There has to be. When 99% of installs come from one location, there needs to be a way to describe that other than “Installing apps from outside the default app store”.
No? It isn’t.
The majority of PC game sales happen via steam but we don’t call games purchased from GOG “sideloaded.”
There is no necessary reason to make the distinction
There is and I’ve already given it. MS app store doesn’t make up 99% of installations.
Okay, I understand your position. Android’s play store has market dominance, so the a term to distinguish between 99% of play store installs vs others, makes sense.
Now, that is a tangent to the main issue, just arguing semantics. The issue is control versus openness, not about the term sideloading.
Is Google’s plan to restrict app sideloading a good thing in your eyes, or no?
A tangent someone else made. Many others really.
100%
Absolutely not. I will no longer recommend Android to anyone. It’s cooked, as far as I’m concerned.
Nice, I could tell you’re a smart dude, so at least we all can agree that Android is no longer to be trusted.
Funny how words and language become the focus of this thread, and then the main issues get pushed to the side. I was arguing against you as if we didn’t agree on the main problem 😅
Words and language are very important sometimes. I just disagree that this is one of those times.
The words for distinguishing between apps that come from one trusted location vs others is usually untrusted or unverified apps versus trusted or verified ones. “Installing apps from outside the default app store” converts to, “Installing an untrusted app”.
It’s not that complicated.
It doesn’t. It’s not that complicated.
Y tho. What difference does it make? Its the same thing.
It’s simply not the same thing and if you can’t understand how that makes it different, I don’t know how to help you.
Installing an app is not the same thing as installing an app? What difference does it make where it came from? Why do you need two different words for installing an app? Why does the distinction of where it came from matter when the outcome is no different?
Yes, that’s exactly what I said 😮💨
I didn’t say that’s what you said, I’m making a point that its the same fucking thing. Read the rest of my comment and answer my questions please. Or do you agree that there’s no functional difference and splitting hairs about where it came from is just a way to enforce corporate hegemony?
It was clearly the implied suggestion. I’ve already answered your questions a dozen times elsewhere. Gonna have to have a poke around because I don’t feel like typing them again.
The functional difference is that one means “installing from anywhere” and the other means “installing from outside the default app store”. They are different words with different meanings, one being more specific than the other.
It’s like saying “neurosurgeon” instead of “medical professional”. There is a difference. One is much more specific. “Neurosurgeon” wasn’t made up by Big Pharma to gaslight you into believing brain surgery was bad, it’s just a lot fewer words than “medical professional who does surgery on brains”.
When I install software from the Arch User Repository I still just call it installing, even though it isn’t through the standard path. Everywhere else, you don’t make the distinction. For some reason on phones we’ve come to call it sideloading, even though the software is just software —it doesn’t care where it came from.
Because 99% of people are getting it from the same place…
even within android, if you attempt to install an apk directly, it doesn’t say “would you like to sideload this application?”, but instead says, “Do you want to install this app?”.
Even Google’s own OS doesn’t use made up language.
I don’t know what that’s supposed to prove. Use of the word is not mandatory.
Again, when I install something from the AUR (which is not where most software comes from —99+% are from official repositories) it isn’t given a special term. It’s the exact same situation as “sideloading” but we just call it installing. Can you explain what the difference is between them?
LOL you just lumped every other repository into one and then excepted the AUR for…reasons?
Because the AUR is by users. The others aren’t.
I know you just can’t explain the difference though so wrote this instead.
I don’t understand what that has to do with this conversation?
Wow, you’re frustrating. If using an unofficial source for applications is called sideloading, why isn’t that term used for desktop computing? The term only exists for phones. The AUR is an unofficial user-run source and is equivalent to a source other than the play/apple store. If that term was actually useful or needed we call installing applications from the AUR sideloading, but we don’t. Clearly the term has no real utility besides making it sound like something you shouldn’t do.
You are also frustrating, asking me questions that I’ve already answered: Because 99% of people aren’t using the default app store on desktops.
The same word that I use to when I get software that’s not on the Microsoft Store, the Mac App Store, or whatever distro’s Software GUI when I am using my desktop…
If the MS Store and Mac App store made up 99% of installs, that might make sense.
Why? That’s a perfect example. There is no qualitative difrence between Microsoft Store and Play Store. Why quantitative difference in the market share would make any distinction in the terminology we use around the process?
I’ve already explained why. I don’t know what more there is to say. If you don’t get it, that’s okay.
So when I install an app from Fdroid, it’s only “installing” if lots of other people do it? But if other people don’t use it as much it’s “sideloading”?
“lots of other people” was not the words I used.
It can be both “installing” and “sideloading”. One is just more specific.
If you need to be that specific, “installing” as in “installing software from outside the play store”
We have words for things for a reason. We don’t call doctors “guys who heal people”.
Yet we call people who hold a doctorate “doctors”, and if we need to specify we use terms like “medical doctors” or “doctors in philosophy”.
Doctor can mean different things to different people.
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Yes, so what do you call it when referring specifically to those apps?