All this does is make people’s data more valuable, and create a valuable repository of people’s personal information.

This happens regardless, there’s no way around the security problem of needing to verify someone’s identify. On a National level, on a State level, on a Country level. We have to, as a society, verify someones identity for security purposes - there’s no getting around that. Decentralization doesn’t solve the security problem here.

Both by governments looking for dissenters

They can already do this.

by advertisers, who will use that data to squeeze every last cent out of you via Surveillance pricing.

This is a separate issue, and they’re already doing this. We already know, as a lemmy users, we need better laws for data protection and tech in general (online and physical).

What do you think will happen when the nations collective web browsing information inevitably gets leaked and anyone can look up anyone’s name, see their license and what they’ve watched on YouTube or elsewhere? It’s creepy tech, not protection.

This is a separate issue, and they’re already doing this. Everything you purchase is available online through data brokers. People are connected to a lot of stuff, and all that data is amassed through brokers. What do you think predictive models were made for?

The solution to these ‘social problems’ is funding education.

You’re 100% right, but Education is a long-term solution already facing an uphill battle. If we were more progressive as a society, then we would have insulated our National Security 10+ years ago, but we’re not, and technology moves fast.

But that doesn’t work quickly, costs money, and various groups of people in power oppose widespread critical thinking. Making sure people aren’t exhausted because they can’t afford anything and are always working would help too, but it’s not ‘sexy’ to uplift people’s standard of living I guess

No rebuttals on the rest, 100% correct.

The number of uneducated, the absolutely absurd amount of data that is already available, and the growing predictive model tech are all reasons why each Nation needs to figure out their tech security, some way, some how - the sooner the better. OS level security is one of the better options. National Firewall, like China, would be the next best bet.

Did they or is that just my collective opinion after growing up with the internet and seeing what it’s turned into?

Do you not think botnets exist or do you not think those botnets pose as citizens?

Maybe you don’t think that the online narratives from social media (Reddit, Facebook, X, Mastadoon, whatever) are driven by botnets boosting signals? Maybe you think online discussion happens organically?

Do you think the average person can distinguish between an AI image and a real image? Photoshop? Do you think the average person would realize that they’re discussing a topic with an LLM? How about a foreign agent?

I don’t know, maybe you don’t think that governments are using this against one-another’s citizens to shake up democracy and promote distrust in their institutions?

I think that both (ours and rival) governments and wealthy individuals (or cabals) use online discourse to drive narratives and through that action (or inaction). I think that by doing nothing we leave the majority of the uneducated at the mercy of those devices. Adding another layer of security makes sense to filter these out.

Personally, I’d much rather have a National Firewall so that there’s the Nations Intranet and then the World Wide Web Internet, but if we have to have something and nobody is fighting for anything better, nobody is finding solutions to these social problems we’ve created, then this’ll have to do. At least a Firewall can be gotten around if you know how - it’s mostly for the general populace. Incoming traffic could be marked and monitored separately.

This isn’t just an issue that’s affecting the U.S. - every Nation has to find a solution to this problem. We either have to combat it with better, alternative solutions, or we have to accept it as a solution to an evergrowing problem.

Nobody has better solutions to fight against botnets and targeted misinformation. Like, these are big deals that every Nation needs account for some way some how. A non-anonymous internet for the masses, and anonymous internet for those who know how to get around it should be the standard.

To boil it down further - this is a individual vs collectivism. YOU want privacy and anonymity because, being on lemmy, you have a higher chance of being more technically literate and inclined. The vast majority are not so inclined and are at a disadvantage.

How Brave

In the Age of Technology and AI, it does make sense to have any manufacturing operations in house than overseas. Ofc if there were countries we could trust that would be onpar as well, but the U.S. pretty much shit the bed on alliances.

I literally don’t know the difference.

Is iOS to Android as Windows is to Mac?

Again, you offer no solutions to our problems. No ideas. Your hopelessness is boring and unoriginal.

Yes, I absolutely do believe that guarding against targeted misinformation is more important than guarding against government intrusion since the government can already strongarm ISPs, OS manufacturers, and web admins for information. If cyber warfare is happening through misinformation to erode Democracy, then I’m rooting for my Government over international Government who are also pining for the same control. There is not going to be a perfect solution to this issue.

It really sounds like, with your lack of ideas or real meaningful recognition of the problem here, that you’ve already given up and given in. That there’s no clawing our way back from our current position. Without ideas or solutions we’re destined to just accept what’s happening and it’s every person for themselves. No safety net against this kind of problem.

Finally, I’m not trying to convince you of shit, I’m trying to have a normal conversation of ideas in a public space, but you have no ideas. Bring something to the table besides pessimism or fuck off, yeah?

I’m hoping in the next ~10 years this problem gets solved. I don’t know how, I don’t care how.

That’s the gist of my take.

I think misinformation campaigns by BFAs and botnets are going to be an absolute nightmare for every society worldwide within the next ~10 years. Let’s be clear - it’s absolutely a part of international cyber warfare. This will of course affect the Democratic societies first and hit them the hardest due to politics.

IMO Nations worldwide are already behind the curve and I think the U.S. is a prime example of how misinformation campaigns can be used to quickly sow distrust in leadership, promote division, and start movements. You could argue that U.S. has been headed this way for years, but it’s been a swift change of guard when compared to the past few decades. I think each Nation is already dealing with this kind of cyber warfare but again, are behind the game due to slow politics, slow policies, and lack of policies on tech.

I understand your concerns, but you also don’t have any solutions. Maybe you don’t think that misinformation and botnets through LLMs online are a problem? Maybe you think the majority of society is educated enough to distinguish misinformation or detect LLMs/bots?

I don’t think nonessential sites should have some kind of ID verification, but I do think there needs to be some spaces where IDs are verified.

If we can’t trust the government, and we can’t trust independent entities, and there are actual government entities around the world are pouring resources into both misinformation campaigns and LLMs to use against the populace, what options do we have?

Why can’t we trust The Linux Foundation (for example) with tie ins to government verification systems to socialize on closed box social websites where we know the individuals we’re socializing with are actual people of the Nation?

My point is that we as a society, and each Nation for it’s own security and health, needs to form some kind of plan to fight both non-citizens posing as legitimate citizens and the rise of LLMs doing the same. For the U.S. I’d argue it’s National Security; there’s pretty clear interference from external sources influencing the populace that don’t make it obvious. How do we do that in a non-intrusive way?

I think the line of thinking that the internet needs to stay private, anonymous, and open is old and narrow-minded. It’s no longer the 90s. We don’t live in a utopia. And corporations aren’t the only entities online trying to influence readers/users. If we can’t feasibly educate a Nations populace on media literacy then there needs to be other protections in place.

Marketing used to be able to target a specific area of populace that would be most likely to fall for their ads or influence, but now it’s being compiled into LLMs which are much faster. This is a threat that is just going to continue to grow until it’s a complete shitshow. We all already have very little privacy out the gate (assuming average level of tech knowledge or whatever).

I’m hoping in the next ~10 years this problem gets solved. I don’t know how, I don’t care how, but the easiest solution is to have some sites use a trustable verification system. I don’t think we can feasibly trust any government with this kind of solution, so the next best thing is an independent entity that chooses not to work with said government since ya know, they’re independent. Obviously I’m not suggesting trusting Planitir or whatever because they do have strong ties to government entities.

Cool, thanks for the notes, alternatives, and ideas. Critical thinking on full display here.

Guess we’ll just have to keep dealing with the weaponization of misinformation in the rise of LLMs all on our own.

I’m sure the undereducated will be just fine and utopia is just around the corner.

I don’t think it needs to be government based, I don’t see why it can’t be Independent.

I don’t see why the independent entity can’t work through the local DMV systems for verification.

You can cry “Oh, but then you’re trusting a corporation with your data” and like, first off, it can be a non-profit. Also, what are you doing with your ISP? The browser you use? The websites you visit? Every step of the way you’re trusting some corporation with your data - there’s no getting away from that.

I do think each Nation does need some form of online verification.

It’s pretty clear what kind of damage malicious actors can do by posing as a Nations citizens online, especially en masse and orchestrated. This problem is going to continue to get worse with the rise of LLMs.

The solution is better media literacy, better education, yatta yatta but that straight up ain’t happen, and certainly not at the scale needed to circumvent that kind of damage.

What other solutions do we have other than Nation wide online verification systems?

AliExpress

Hell yeah, if there’s one thing I already can’t get on Amazon is Chinese knockoffs /s

I mean, how can we be so sure Bezos doesn’t still have influence over Amazon? He sure owns a lot of stocks in it for obvious reasons. He’s bought the Washington Post to spread propaganda. He’s set up Blue Origin to get government contracts. I’ve no reason to believe that he’s not apart of the Amazon problem and their influence over American Markets.

Something about one big club.

probably

lol

Sorry Mr. Burns, but I don’t go in for these backdoor shenanigans. Sure, I’m flattered - maybe even a little curious… but the answer is no!

It was the best of times; it was the ~ B L U R S T ~ O F ~ T I M E S ~

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The enemy of my enemy and all that. If dude can convince any of his followers to wake the fuck up then let the man speak; we could use the numbers.

I didn’t think it would be such a stretch to say Coke > Pepsi but whatever bro. Apple is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy less intrusive and integrated into the American government than Google.

Google may as well be state sanctioned with how much they’re integrated with American military and as American spyware. So if those are the only choices for most people then yeah, I’d absolutely defend Apple over Google.

Don’t worry, I’ll catch the next bandwagon.